On 28 August 2024 an event was held in Berlin to inspire people to discover and practice sustainable ways of living that both promote personal well-being as well as strengthen a culture of respectful coexistence. 

Three renowned guests from the fields of science, leadership and spirituality participated in a conversation about a paradigm shift: from external growth to inner growth and changing mindsets. Here follows a shortened and edited report.
Watch/listen to the whole conversation here.

Prof Dr Mark Lawrence, Director of the Research Institute for Sustainability in Potsdam (RIFS), has, based on over a decade of frequent and often intensive discussions, worked out, among other things, to strive: “… not to do anything that knowingly causes harm or inconvenience to other people, and to minimize the harm and inconvenience I cause to others.” Dr Mark Lawrence’s blog

Sister Jayanti, the administrative head of the world’s largest women-led spiritual organisation: The Brahma Kumaris. Since 2009, she has also led the Brahma Kumaris delegation to the COP climate conferences: “Change is not just about external solutions, but about a change of heart and a change of consciousness.” www.bkjayanti.org

Christian Greiser, a recognised expert in leadership development. He has 30 years of professional experience and states: “Our inner attitude determines how we perceive the world around us, how we react to it, and how we evaluate it. It therefore acts as a filter through which we interact with the world. For managers, the inner attitude can shine through in different situations.” www.greiseradvisory.com

Moderation: Philippa Blackham, journalist and broadcaster, is an award-winning documentary filmmaker. She has worked for BBC radio for many years, including seven years as a reporter and presenter of Woman’s Hour on BBC Radio 4.

Q: Sister Jayanti, what troubled waters do you see, and what is your spiritual perspective?

A: The loss of values in our lives has created a breakdown in many different areas. I must go on an inner journey and reconnect with the original qualities within me. It is a paradox that I seek love and peace outside. When I begin to catch a glimpse of the goodness that lies within, that is the start of creating a bridge.

1. First, a bridge to my inner world and become aware of who I truly am, away from race, gender, nationality, religion, position etc. To discover the beauty of the soul and the goodness that is my original natural state. Spirituality is not a mystery; it is about getting to know myself so I can deeply connect with that goodness.
2. When connecting with the goodness inside myself, I can create valuable relationships with others. So often, we prize the outcome of work and external results rather than the value of human beings and relationships. My real friends are the ones I know personally, face to face, and with whom I can meet and connect.

When I can be a friend to myself, I can be a friend to others and make many friends, a support system that can carry me through all the challenging times that we are passing through. I need to love and trust myself first, and then together, we can create a bridge over troubled waters and reach the other side, where there is a world of harmony, truth, and love. My hope for the future is there because there is goodness in human minds and hearts, and that is what will win the day.

Q: Christian, what are you bringing to the table from this leadership perspective?

A: We live in an era of intense change. We are facing simultaneous waves of ecological, technological, social and geographical shifts. Otto Scharmer, a professor at MIT, has described these challenges as three divides.

1. The divide between ourselves and nature
2. The divide between ourselves and others
3. The divide within ourselves

True leadership is about bridging these divides and restoring harmony. Harmony with the Earth, harmony with each other and harmony within ourselves. Technology, in particular artificial intelligence, certainly offers remarkable solutions and tools. Still, it cannot replace what is uniquely human in leadership, and we need leaders who can inspire others, bring a sense of purpose to people, and care about the aspirations of others. So, what does it mean to be a human leader? Martin Luther King once said, “Life’s most persistent and urgent question is, what are you doing for others?” And this, to me, is the essence of human leadership. It’s not about being in the spotlight. It’s about shining your light on others. It’s about service. This departs from more conventional definitions of leadership, typically rooted in authority, power and status. Leaders today, facing or confronted with complex challenges, need much more than just strategic thinking or technical expertise. Yes, they need to be rational, logical, and able to forecast, but they also need to be empathetic. They must be grounded and attuned to the more subtle aspects of leadership, such as mindfulness or deep listening and the ability to tap into higher levels of insight and creativity. Based on my experience, authentic leadership emerges when leaders bring a sense of service, mission and purpose to their work. In my experience as a coach working with leaders,

there are three critical levels of leadership mastery:

1. Leading yourself
2. Leading others
3. Leading large-scale change

Leading yourself is both the most difficult and the most important. As the ancient inscription on the Temple of Delphi advised: Know thyself. Many leaders now strive to understand themselves, even in essential leadership positions. It is vital to be self-aware because, without self-awareness, it’s impossible to lead others and drive meaningful change. So, how can leaders learn to lead themselves? It starts with reconnecting to your authentic self. It is about self-reflection. Cultivating self-awareness is the ability to truly understand one’s moods, goals, values, and emotions and how these influence one’s behaviour. Leaders need to create space for self-reflection. Methods like mindfulness and meditation can be invaluable tools in this respect. When a friend and I started a mindfulness initiative at BCG, it was just the two of us, to begin with, but it grew to more than 1000 during the pandemic. That highlights the significant interest and the importance of these practices.

Leading others is deeply connected to empathy. Research shows that effective leadership hinges on understanding and caring about the feelings of others, but it’s also about integrating one’s own experiences and emotions. I feel spiritual insights into your leadership style, and by doing so, fostering authenticity and trust. I will share a brief example. I recently worked for a large professional services forum that is facing high employee turnover, mainly among younger employees. Surprisingly, the reason was not about salary or promotions. The issue was a lack of appreciation for their work. This example highlights how vital it is for leaders to ensure that people feel valued.

Leading change at a time when we face complex and systemic problems requires a shift from thinking that you need to know all the answers to learning to ask the right questions. One person’s brilliance alone cannot solve adaptive challenges like climate change or geopolitical tensions. Leaders need to draw on collective intelligence, empower others and motivate them to develop creative solutions, which requires a mindset shift, a movement towards what some people call the “Don’t-know-mind”, where leaders open up to new possibilities instead of being fixed on specific solutions. Once again, mindfulness can play an essential role in making this happen and cultivating this new mindset. A study published in Forbes magazine found that mindfulness programs can significantly boost the company’s collective intelligence. In my work with leaders, I’m increasingly encouraged by the growing number of companies and leaders awakening to the importance of both people and the planet. I feel that more and more leaders are willing to take the journey toward human leadership, and they are shifting their focus from “I, Me and Mine” to “We”. They are changing their leadership style from classic leading to serving and some even to healing. Nicholas Janni has a beautiful book called “Leaders Healer” (www.nicholasjanni.com/leader-as-healer). All this gives me great optimism for the future.

Q: Mark, what do you bring from the world of sustainability to this conversation?

I have often been asked, “How can I live sustainably?” Over the years, several points have crystallised.

In a modern societal setting, living sustainably in a literal sense is impossible. But that doesn’t mean we should give up. We can take the question a step further and say: How can I live in support of sustainability?

1. Mahatma Gandhi said: “Be the change you want to see in the world”, which I find very inspiring. Let’s take that a step further and say: We need to be the agents of the change we want to see in the world.
2. To be agents of change: Learn how to align your life with sustainability principles. This includes encouraging and inspiring others to live in ways that support sustainability. It also includes setting the stage for empowering and enabling others through co-generating knowledge and facilitating transformation processes.
3. Principles for living in support of sustainability. After years of thinking about this, seven principles have come to the forefront in my context.

Context is critical: You can’t encourage or inspire others to be like you because they live in a different context. They have various abilities and interests, but you can encourage others in their context, with their skills and interests, to live in support of what they understand to be sustainability.

1. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
2. Be very mindful of your use an application of material energy and economic resources.
3. Be very aware of how you use human resources, both your own and those of the people around you.
4. Take good care of your body, mind, and spirit. Health is number three of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals.
5. Work for synergies. Strive for excellence in what you do, but only compete if it’s in the spirit of play unless it’s in the spirit of mutually enhancing the performance of all. Do not compete in the sense of putting others down.
6. Do not knowingly harm others; minimise your harm to all sentient beings.
7. Strive to live as an embodiment of that exalted state that you may believe was sustainable.

Living sustainably includes loving-kindness, generosity and supporting others. Yes, it is difficult, but don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

(You can read more about these principles here: Dr Marks Lawrence’s blog)

Q: Sr Jayanti, what can I do for others? How can we move from “me” to “We”? What would each of you say from your perspective?

A: I do believe in the statement: “It is in giving that you receive”, and it comes through all the different traditions. Drain and burnout are happening in so many fields of endeavour at present. If we can find a way to recharge ourselves so that energy comes through us and reaches others, that energy can be through thoughts, words, or actions. In the awareness of connecting with One and letting yourself be an instrument and share, it eliminates the ego that “I” have done something. I have simply been an instrument and along the way, I am getting recharged, so there is not a question of burning out.

Dadi Janki lived to be 104 and passed away in 2020. She came to the Brahma Kumaris in the 30ies, started giving right away and continued giving until 2020. How can someone, a human being like you and me, continually give and give and give? She would say: It is not me. It is coming from above. I simply keep myself as a clear channel so that energy can flow through. Each one of us can become a channel in that way.

Q: Mark, can we say that personal interests rather than looking at the benefit of the collective drives the environmental crisis?

A: Many get exhausted because of an over-focus on ensuring that everything you wear and do is sustainable. The caution of not overdoing it but doing it as far as possible is very valuable. Secondly the time-factor, instead of short-term, think of the longer-term sustainability of a business, the longer-term sustainability of a community, or the longer-term sustainability of the earth. It’s vital that we investigate both of those aspects and not get lost in one dimension or the other.

Q: Christian, how do you in the world of business enter this spirit of the good of the whole rather than just for our company?

A: The word competition can come across as very aggressive, but you can have different perspectives. It can show you where you are, where you should go, and where you shouldn’t go. It can help me understand how I can do better. I can learn from other companies. But if it is only about short-term results, trying to create profit at any cost, it can have a very dark and negative effects. This is the question about values that Sister Jayanti said in the beginning: Which values do you bring to your business? If your leadership and the culture of your company is grounded in the right values, I think it can deal with competition in the right way,

Q: Sister Jayanti, for many young people, their work is not just about earning money, but about having a job that is worthwhile and making a difference. It seems to indicate that we are entering an era where values will drive our way forward and build a bridge to where we are going. What role do you see values are playing?

A: If I think about civilisation in terms of history, when there is a group of people who hold certain values in high esteem and strive to follow those values in their lives, then you have a world in which the arts can flourish, new discoveries made and there are many advances that happen. And where values have been forgotten, selfish motives drive the civilisation, and civilisation heads to collapse. I think that because we have seen the result of a lack of values, we now begin to appreciate why we need to come back to values again. I do see that there is a growing movement; high energy is being given in this direction of human values and spiritual values once more. I think that is the way a better world can be created. A civilisation in which we are working from the values that are at the core of our being and not external things.

Q: So, what would you say are the values intrinsic to each of us?

A: It is like the basic colours; when you mix and match those colours, you get the whole rainbow. In the same way, the original intrinsic qualities of the soul are peace, love, wisdom, purity and joy, and when you mix these qualities in different percentages, you get the spectrum of all the different values of compassion, kindness, integrity, honesty, etc. This is why when I come back to the inner being, the soul, and I realise that this is what I am, then I will not be struggling to follow values in my life. I know that I have them, and I use them in the way I live my life.

Q: Mark, for many people in the environmental field, they would say that they are promoting positive values of nurturing and caring for the environment, of protecting and conserving, and yet, very often, they get knocked back by society for being problematic and ‘poking the bear’. So, the message can come that it doesn’t pay to have these values because you’re not going to be rewarded for them by society.

A: Sometimes an action that really scratches and gets attention can be very effective if it is not causing substantial harm. Therefore, we need open debates in society, deciding what is acceptable and what is crossing boundaries. I think that for many people, the sense of doing something good for the environment is so intrinsic that recognition does not matter as much as it does in the choice of workplace. In fact, the negative recognition can even be positive in the sense that we have brought attention to the issue, and that is so strongly at the forefront of the values that the recognition issue isn’t, perhaps, as important as it is in other settings.

We talked about doing it “for” the environment, saving the climate. There is a care for the environment itself in many people and a care for non-human sentient beings. But there’s also a need to care for humans and make sure that we’re protecting ourselves. So, I think that’s where it comes back to the values. It is fascinating to look at it from a social science humanities perspective and understand how it links to our growing understanding of the natural sciences.

Q: Christian, there is a need to build a bridge between the climate change activists and those whose bottom line is potentially going to be affected by the changes and measures being suggested. Where are we at in terms of bridge building between your community and this community.

A: I don’t know where we are. It is not just about the ethical aspects and values. It is also about how companies are seen from the outside. Another big topic on the agenda is talent. Companies are looking for the next generation to join their company, but this generation has a very distinct perspective on what companies are doing. A lot of companies now suddenly realise that they are not able to win these talents simply because they (themselves) represent the wrong values, or they don’t care for these topics. This has an impact on these companies. That doesn’t stop with climate, but there is also this notion of human sustainability. Do we provide working environments where humans can work sustainably? Everything comes up now in big companies and is taken more and more seriously. This is something where I feel the bridge starts to be built. Some companies are moving faster than others, but there is a clear impact.

Q: Sister Jayanti, how does a shift in consciousness potentially bring about the change that we’re looking for?

A: When I started the first Raj Yoga centre in London 50-plus years ago, the word meditation had just started to come into our language. Today, meditation is fashionable. Where the vegetarian diet at school previously was lettuce and boiled potato, today, at schools and hospitals, you are provided with a beautiful vegetarian meal. So, if these institutions in our world are changing to that extent, it gives you an idea of how much change has happened in a positive direction in terms of consciousness. Today, we regard smoking as dangerous, even passive smoking. Laws have been made to be able to take us away from that. It happened so quickly. I think consciousness has been changing in a beautiful way. There’s a little bit further to go. I think it will happen quite fast.

Q: Mark, everything is set for major change. Yet, there is evidence to suggest that we are not coping all that well. How are we going to navigate and build resilience? How do we bring about change in a way that we can all cope with?

A: I was also thinking about the rate of change, how difficult it was to get a vegetarian, let alone a vegan meal not even 10 years ago, at the Paris Climate Conference and the ones before that. At the last two Climate Conferences, in Egypt and Dubai, every other stand, left and right, had some kind of nice bowls or vegan sandwiches, etc. It has become fashionable and changed very quickly. There are many other things that have changed quickly, so we might start to think that we can change anything. But we have businesses that have 30, 40, and 50-year investments in power plants, tooling for aircraft, building ships, or other things. Changes there don’t happen easily or quickly. So, with all the confidence and all the hope that we sprout from these rapid changes that we see in behaviours, we need to be very aware that changes in systems can take a lot longer.

How are we going to build resilience and bring about change in a way that we can all cope with? I believe in transdisciplinary research. Facilitating interactions between different components of society, especially between different knowledge holders and knowledge generators, is a very important aspect. We bring so many things into our society that are meant to be good for us, like cell phones, computers, laptops, iPads, and even wristwatches, which are supposed to make things easier, but end up giving us stress. We have all sorts of other forms of knowledge, such as spiritual, political, indigenous, investigative, journalistic knowledge, and so on. We must bring together all various forms of knowledge into the research process. It does not mean to make science wishy-washy; we keep the scientific method and the scientific approach rigorous, but we bring other elements of knowledge into it. A very important aspect of making this shift that you talked about is going to be respecting the knowledge and the capacities that others bring in and not just our own walk of life, not only spiritual solutions, not only business solutions, not only science solutions but joint solutions. Transdisciplinary research.

Sister Jayanti: Another aspect of building resilience. If I can spend a little bit of time each day just going deep inside myself and strengthening my own foundation of goodness, of faith, of respect for myself and for others. The stability that this brings me is not just for those 10, 15 or 20 minutes that I have spent doing that, but it is creating a very solid, firm foundation in which, as I come out of that space, facing all the uncertainties, I’m doing it from a very stable ground from within my own self. So, really, there is something we can each do in a very simple way, and I know that it works. The things that I’m dealing with now, I would not have been able to deal with some years ago, but it is a consistency of practice, and when I keep practising this awareness of going inside and connecting above, then this gives that strength and inner power. Also, we live in a world in which we have too much choice. A long time ago, a psychiatrist said that one of the factors of stress in the world is that we have too many choices and not enough wisdom with which to make our choices. Focusing my mind on aspects of truth, on aspects of the eternal being, the connection above, all these things bring great clarity, so that then I can see not just what my choices are, but what the consequences of those choices would be. And so, decision-making is enhanced in a very powerful way. I am listening to the voice of my own conscience, my own intuition, and maybe even signals from above, and that means that I move ahead with a certain assurance and confidence in faith, which I need so much in his present times.

Christian, I hear you talk about a genuine interest in meditation in the boardroom, at the level of the CEO, people who are running organisations. Can you give us a little insight into what is the interest and how are they adopting it?

A: I had my own meditation practice, and I was working in my business, which involved two separate lives. A colleague of mine said: We should write an article about mindfulness and business. I first thought it was a bad idea, that they were two different topics, but eventually, we did it and got a lot of questions and emails. I was then invited to a company that said: We want to learn more about mindfulness in business, can you tell us? I was prepared to do what I’m doing today, to sit on stage and talk a bit about mindfulness, but shortly before I started this exercise, the client told me “By the way you’re not doing this presentation alone. Here is another consultant who is a mindfulness trainer. She will be doing the presentation together with you”, and she told me, “Oh, that’s wonderful, you do the presentation, and I do the meditation”. I said, “You are doing what? There are 60 managers here, and we are doing a live meditation?”. And she said, “Yes, that’s what we are going to do”. So, I was a bit afraid. I didn’t know what was going to happen. Then to all these big-ego managers sitting there, she said, “I have a very simple task for the next one minute. Think about nothing, only observe your breathing. It’s very, very simple, and you are all very smart and intelligent. Could you please do that?” Then after the minute, she said: “All those that were not able to just focus on their breathing and not think about anything, please raise your arm”. And all arms went up. Then she said: “I thought, you’re very smart. Maybe I didn’t explain the exercise correctly. You should not think about anything”. This was the first time they became aware of all this traffic going on their minds. When we asked the 60 participants who would be interested in participating in a mindfulness program, I think there were 56 people who said yes. in a very short experience, you suddenly realise that you think you have control over so many things while, in fact, don’t even have control over your own mind. How can you believe you have control over other things? It was very powerful.

Often, we learn about mindfulness in companies only when it is connected to burnout. I think on the positive side, there are also opportunities. We did a study where we could show that collective intelligence increased by 13% by mindfulness programs. It can support psychological safety and improve the work environment, but it needs to be done professionally. I think the first big wave is over, and some companies have turned a bit sceptical. However, I believe that it is something that will be permanently part of a company’s well-being or corporate culture.

Question from the audience to Christian: You said that when you want to change a company you have to change yourself, change your own ways, but also that it is very important to stay authentic. How can we do both?

I think it depends on how you define your authenticity. If you define your authenticity based on outer factors, such as how you live and what you do, that may be a limited view. But if you say that your authentic self is your values, what is deep inside you, you can make a lot of changes in your life, even open a new chapter, and you are still authentic. Some of your friends around you might say you look different, you are doing something different, while you are still true to yourself. However, understanding your own values may not be easy. You feel your values, typically in critical situations, in how you react. The first exercise in coaching sessions is trying to understand: What are your values? What is important for you? What do you expect from life, and what is it that you want to contribute? Based on that, change is possible. A change with this fixed part inside you. A discovery process where you discover more about your values.

General question from the audience: How do you encourage a grounded culture of openness, humility and modesty to have these sorts of discussions about empathy and feelings, especially when you want to bring this into an organisation?

Christian: It is a something you do for yourself. It has a lot to do with role modelling. If I see people displaying this behaviour, being empathetic, being grounded, being attuned to others, and being open to others, I might be inspired to do the same. Unfortunately, what you often see is that people talk about it but do not act in that way. That is a big challenge. One wise master once said that those who know don’t talk, and those who talk don’t know. I think rather than talking about it, we should just do it. Be empathetic. Simply having time to reach out. I often see this willingness to be more empathetic, but then they tell me, “I don’t know when to do this. Look at my calendar”. This shows the fundamental problem. Empathy is not something you do Friday afternoon after three o’clock. Empathy doesn’t take much time. Just to see someone, asking a question, smiling or responding to someone. Role modelling.

Mark: There are ways established of facilitating appreciative discussions like Appreciative Inquiry, The Seventh Generation, or methods where you have a more silent communication, or where people are allowing and pulling out the perspectives from others. They are set up to help us bring out respect in discussions.

Most side events at the Climate Conferences are panel discussions like this, but a little bit more white male representation, a little bit more focused on themselves and very often reading their emails while the others are speaking. A change in the communicative atmosphere could lead to potentially different results. We have experimented with setting up different types of discussion formats to see how they are received in the context of a climate conference, what people think about the communication at the conferences and how that can change. If you are interested, we have written some peer-reviewed scientific journal results showing the perspective on using these types of formats.

Sister Jayanti:  Some years ago, Harvard ran a summer school in which they were experimenting with different things, and one of the results they found was that one act of kindness impacted 125 others. So, if I start acting with empathy and humility, who knows who saw and benefitted? They will carry that further. So, do something good. You don’t need to wait to see the results, but it is having an impact on 125 others.

Question from the audience to Sister Jayanti: A lot of wisdom flows through you, and you go to many conferences where there’s a lot of knowledge and science. How do you balance when your wisdom should be talking and when do you add knowledge?

Sister Jayanti: Opportunities come and if you’re open you soak in those opportunities and benefit from whatever is going on. One of the most important things I have learned over the years is to give yourself space in the morning hours, especially the early morning hours when the world is quiet and even your family is quiet. Keep those for yourself and fill yourself with whatever you can during that period. For the rest of the day, you will see where the opportunities are and what you need to do.

Q: Mark, is it not a barrier that the topic of sustainability often comes across as accusatory to many people? You’re not doing enough. You should be doing this, and however much you do, are you ever really satisfied?

It is a major challenge. In German, there’s the term “Öko-Diktatur”, i.e. ecological dictatorship. It is a massive problem that many feel that they are being disadvantaged by developments associated with a sustainability agenda. Those who are focused on some type of short-term profit or those living traditional lives, like on a farm where meat is a part of life, they don’t understand these people who are trying to take their traditional way of life away. Of course, they will fight back and make sustainability sound like a loss. But sustainability is about getting something and giving something. Getting stability and a healthier, more wholesome and secure way of living. Yes, we may have to give up some things, but if we keep those things, we will have to give up other things. It is difficult to bring that across well. This comes back to how we can have respectful ways of interacting with each other so that we can understand where that pushback is coming from. Work together respectfully to bring about change that is oriented on the common good, but also be respectful of the changes and challenges it brings for each person within the larger common good picture.

Q: What is your personal vision of this new story for humanity? What does the other side, the far side of the bridge, look like for you?

Christian: It has to do with collectiveness, the vision I have is that we can solve these problems we have around us individually. They are our problems and our opportunities. What I would like to see is a different way of working together, of coming together, of understanding each other. That is my vision.

Mark: We have a definition that we orient on as a guiding concept for fostering and securing humane living conditions for all people worldwide, now and in the future, for restoring and protecting the environmental conditions that are needed to provide those conditions. So, my vision is a world in which this viewpoint of sustainability is at the forefront. Not taking people down, demoralising them and taking things away, but providing a rich life to people around the world. This vision drives all the individual work of understanding how actions relate to the consequences and how we can develop pathways forward for setting up a world in which we can come to this view of living in a way that is rich, enjoyable, healthy, secure, loving and supporting the common good. We have had one of our master’s students write a master’s thesis on love and the Anthropocene, trying to understand how love can be looked at from a scientific perspective as well. My vision is a world that heads in this direction.

Sister Jayanti: I’m convinced that the goodness of humanity will win. When human beings are in touch with themselves and they allow their own original intrinsic qualities to emerge and express in their activity, behaviour, and relationships, and with all forms of life, we then see a world of perfect harmony. I don’t think it is a dream, we are moving in that direction, and it will become a reality.

This programme was initiated and organised by Brahma Kumaris with the support of the Research Institute for Sustainability in Potsdam (RIFS) and Spirit of Humanity Forum and held at bUm co-working space and community in Berlin.